Emily McKeown and Lindsay Tiffany have a standing meeting to collaborate and advise each other on legal marketing and business development issues. The twist? They work for separate law firms.
Their firms serve different geographic markets, so they aren’t in direct competition, but Emily and Lindsay say their peer relationship is invaluable. In this episode, they share the benefits this type of relationship offers law firms, how it enhances their professional development, and why they encourage others to build similar connections.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn
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An introduction to Godfrey & Kahn and Wyrick Robbins.
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How Emily and Lindsay met and built a strong peer relationship in a competitive industry.
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The mutual benefits legal marketers, business developers and firms gain from peer work relationships — even across different geographies and markets.
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Tips for establishing, maintaining and nurturing virtual peer relationships.
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How to navigate confidentiality and handle sensitive information while still advising each other.
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The importance of transparency and vulnerability in building authentic relationships.
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What to keep in mind as conference season approaches.
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Why Emily and Linsday want people to shift how they think about mentorship in the legal industry.
About our featured guests
Emily McKeown is the Business Development Director at Godfrey & Kahn and works out of the firm’s Milwaukee office. She partners with attorneys throughout the firm to strengthen relationships and enhance the client experience. Emily works closely with leaders across all offices to build the Godfrey & Kahn brand and work to ensure the firm remains the premier choice for business clients throughout Wisconsin. Emily’s work focuses on business development coaching, building client engagement, and strengthening ties between Godfrey & Kahn and the local community. She serves on the firm’s Pro Bono and Community Engagement Committee. Prior to joining Godfrey & Kahn, Emily worked in government administration.
As Director of Marketing and Engagement at Wyrick Robbins, Lindsay Tiffany oversees the firm’s public relations and marketing efforts with an emphasis on connecting attorneys and clients through digital channels and live events. Leveraging the firm’s website, social media and email marketing platform, she develops strategies to share the firm’s collective knowledge and assists in soliciting client feedback and measuring client satisfaction. Prior to joining Wyrick Robbins, Lindsay enjoyed digital marketing and client-facing roles at a boutique transactional law firm, a growth-stage software company and the Council for Entrepreneurial Development. Lindsay is an active member of the Legal Marketing Association, where she presently serves as an advisor to the Raleigh chapter’s local steering committee.
Resources mentioned in this episode
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Emily McKeown: You've got to do it. You've got to put yourself out there. Take a risk whether it's by email or LinkedIn. We think something that we've both found that works for us is: don't just send a message that says, "Hey, great to meet you." You ask someone for advice or a favor because everyone likes to help.
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[00:00:22] Announcer: Welcome to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show.
[00:00:37] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone, and welcome to “Spill the Ink.” I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host. I'm the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We are a public relations and thought leadership marketing agency for B2B professional services firms, including law firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
We have a special episode planned today. We typically have just one guest join the show, but today I'm really excited to introduce Lindsay Tiffany and Emily McKeown. We have two guests, which is really exciting. We're going to be diving into the power and value that forging peer work relationships can offer law firms. Lindsay Tiffany is the director of marketing and engagement at Wyrick Robbins, and Emily McKeown is the business development director at Godfrey & Kahn. I'd love for you both to introduce yourselves and tell me a little bit about your background in legal marketing.
[00:01:40] Lindsay Tiffany: Sure. Emily, do you want to start us off?
[00:01:44] Emily: I'd be happy to. First of all, thank you so much for having us on so we could share a little bit about our story. I'm Emily McKeown. I'm the business development director at Godfrey & Kahn. I sit in our Milwaukee, Wisconsin office, but we are a corporate law firm with about 200 attorneys in five offices in Wisconsin and Washington, D.C. My path to legal marketing isn't linear, which is a common story. I am a lawyer by training, but spent some time in government and landed at Godfrey & Kahn about five years ago.
[00:02:15] Michelle: Great.
[00:02:16] Emily: Lindsay, I'll turn it back to you.
[00:02:18] Lindsay: Yes. Thank you. I echo Emily. Thank you, Michelle. My name is Lindsay Tiffany. I'm the director of marketing and engagement at Wyrick Robbins. Wyrick Robbins is a corporate law firm with about 115 attorneys. We work out of a single office in Raleigh, North Carolina, and we serve clients all over the country and beyond. I did start my career in legal marketing, but I did take a detour. I went into digital marketing and then relationship marketing, but I ended up returning to legal about seven years ago, and I've been with Wyrick Robbins ever since. Sometimes I like to joke that coming back to the legal industry makes me a glutton for punishment, but truly, I have had the incredible good fortune of working at two of the most collaborative and conscientious law firms that I've ever heard of or known.
[00:03:10] Michelle: Oh, that's great.
[00:03:11] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:03:11] Michelle: Good for you. Yes, that's great. You're like me. I have a degree in public relations so I'm actually doing what I went to school for. Yes, a lot of people--
[00:03:17] Lindsay: Yes, that's rare.
[00:03:19] Michelle: People in our field don't end up doing that. Tell me a little bit about how you guys met.
[00:03:26] Emily: Sure. We met in either 2020 or 2021. It was those early dark days of COVID where everything was virtual and every organization was scrambling. They were pivoting. They were trying to provide meaningful virtual connection. We had both signed up for some really great virtual content that the Legal Marketing Association had started to put on. We were in a business development training. By pure chance, got into a breakout room together, and I just started to really listen and pay attention every time Lindsay talked because somehow she managed to take the thoughts from my brain, put them into words, but much more eloquently than I could ever say them. I just realized that she was smart and confident and had these great business development instincts, and I thought, this is someone I'd love to have in my personal network.
[00:04:15] Michelle: Oh, I love that. I love that. Tell me from your perspective, Lindsay.
[00:04:22] Lindsay: Oh, well, gosh, that is super kind of Emily to say. I could repeat all of that back and say the exact same things about her. She told our story beautifully. I guess we just have COVID to thank for this relationship. Emily hit on the mass pivot to virtual programming, but I think that something, maybe one part of it was just that everybody was really hungry for that connection. Maybe that gave us a little bit of extra oomph to connect after the fact. Also, people were just beginning to see that virtual connection was actually a viable way to sustain a relationship.
[00:05:08] Michelle: Yes, I love that. I love that you were able to see a like-minded person too that way — that you were able to go, “Oh, that person says some things that are resonating with me and seems to be the kind of person that I want to connect with and know better.” We can do that virtually just as well as we could do — we might be able to do it better sometimes virtually than we can do maybe in a crowded, in-person venue. Tell me how that relationship has evolved. You met — tell me where it's gone now from that initial meeting.
[00:05:48] Emily: Yes, well, from that initial connection, and we took that step to take it outside of that training and meet again virtually. Where we stand now, it's about quarterly, we meet for an hour virtually. I think your point is a really good one, that here's a benefit of a virtual relationship. It's from our desks, we hop on in between meetings, but it's time that we've become really protective of. Of course, we can always reschedule if needed, but it's something I look forward to every week. I see it upcoming. I come with a list of questions that I would love Lindsay's take on, and somehow from that list, the conversation just evolves, and all of a sudden, an hour has passed, and it's like no time has passed at all.
[00:06:34] Michelle: I love that. Now, Emily, did you reach out? Did you say, "Hey, Lindsay, you seem like somebody I'd like to know?” How did that happen? Did you just send an email or — I wonder, what was that? Because I think a lot of people are just nervous about — especially because a lot of people think, and one thing I've learned in the legal industry, as agencies, I'm very friendly with my competitors, and I really enjoy that. A lot of people, I think when they're coming up, they initially think, "Oh, I can't be friendly with people who are technically competitors." How was that outreach like?
[00:07:15] Emily: Yes. It's tough to take that first step. One of the things I want to leave your listeners with is: you've got to do it. You've got to put yourself out there. Take a risk whether it's by email or LinkedIn. We think something that we've both found that works for us is: don't just send a message that says, "Hey, great to meet you." You ask someone for advice or a favor because everyone likes to help.
[00:07:38] Michelle: Yes.
[00:07:39] Emily: In our shared recollection, we can't actually recall who took that first step, which hopefully points to how natural our relationship has become and how long it's been maintained. It was either LinkedIn or email. Then just from there, we found that mutual benefit and value.
[00:08:00] Michelle: Yes, that's great. Can you give me some examples of times when the relationship that you've cultivated has benefited you? Can you give me a few examples?
[00:08:15] Lindsay: Oh, gosh. I think Emily touched on this in her earlier comment, that there's always things that we want the other's opinion on. I just keep a running list of things, in anticipation of the upcoming meeting whenever that's scheduled for the upcoming quarter. She is just so wonderful. Because we are in the same industry, we don't have to spend a lot of time bringing the other up to speed on some of the pain points. Her firm's bigger but similar in many ways, but really, really key that she's out of market. I think that affords us the opportunity to be a little bit more transparent than we would be.
I have a great network of legal marketing friends in Raleigh. Those people are just pure gold, and they are so wonderful, but there are just some things that you can't say to the person in your chair at your neighboring firm. I think it's really helpful, and I think that's a really unique point about the relationship that Emily and I have, is that she's out of market. I can be just a little bit more transparent about my pain points or the problem that's giving me a little bit of grief. That's really key.
I think another thing that makes the relationship work and really add a lot of value to both of us is that really nothing's off the table. Of course, we work in a highly confidential industry, so we're certainly not discussing clients or proprietary information, or anything like that, but we're both willing to be the listening ear or the problem solver that the other is needing in that moment. I think we can really, because we're in similar situations, we can problem solve and iterate very quickly. We can really make use of that hour. Like we've said, it's truly never enough time. [laughs]
[00:10:32] Michelle: Yes, I love that. Yes, I was going to ask about if there's any sensitive — because, absolutely, while I'm the same way, while I'm friendly with competitors, you have to navigate it, right? I think it's wonderful when you have that "competitor," who's a competitor, but not like that direct competitor that's going after that exact same work every day, so that you can be really open, and really bounce those ideas off without having to worry too much about sharing. That does make the relationship even more a bit beneficial. I love the running list thing. I do the same with some of some of my cohort groups as well. Is there anything else in terms of sensitive areas? Has there ever been a sticky point that's come up or sticky issue? Have y'all ever found that?
[00:11:34] Emily: Very few. I think that this point about us doing similar work in different markets is such an important one.
[00:11:40] Michelle: Markets, yes.
[00:11:43] Emily: So many professional services marketing regions are small worlds, where you know the person that does your job down the street, and there are just some things that you can't share. In our relationship, given that geographically and regionally, we are fairly distinct, it has opened the door and allowed us to be much more transparent and much more vulnerable about the real issues that we're facing in our jobs.
[00:12:11] Michelle: Yes. I love that.
[00:12:12] Lindsay: I just really want to underscore Emily's point on being vulnerable. I think in any relationship, you are just going to sort of fast track where that relationship adds value back into your own situation by being vulnerable. I think that's a key point is the transparency and the vulnerability about what it is that you are running into. I think that's so key. She makes an awesome point.
[00:12:40] Michelle: 100%. Yes. Oh, gosh, yes. If somebody acts like they've never run into problems, yes, how are you going to feel comfortable opening up and bearing your soul a little bit if that person is putting up that brave face? I think women are particularly good about being vulnerable and being able to have those conversations. It's helpful. One of the things you guys mentioned is that you find these relationships particularly helpful during conference season, and we're about to come up on some regional conferences, at least. Tell me why it's been helpful for you during conference season.
[00:13:19] Lindsay: Well, it's actually never played out this way between Emily and I. We've never actually met in person. Generally speaking, I think that this type of relationship can be super valuable during conference season because, simply put, it's always comforting to see a familiar face when you're walking into that room full of strangers. I think what's really important also to keep in mind as we're going into conference season, or at least regional conference season, is that building those peer relationships, it's so important for the next time that you're in that situation, walking into that room. Also, be thoughtful as you're going to the conference that you could walk away with a connection like the one that we started with and then have nurtured to this point.
I think what's really key is what happens after the conference. Walking into the conference, knowing that this is possible with any connection that you're making there, but it's what happens after the conference, that's where the real magic happens. Back to Emily's earlier point about sort of taking that risk and having that confidence, you do have to take that first step to, after the conference high wears off, make that follow-up connection. Then it takes real thoughtfulness and effort to keep that connection alive for the long term.
[00:14:56] Michelle: Yes, that's a great, great point. Lindsay, I love what you're saying about conferences. I say the same thing to my team. Often, I tell them that, making the relationships before you start going to the conferences makes going to those conferences just so much more of a rewarding experience. I don't know if either of you have gone to the conference and not known anybody at all before and just what a terrible experience it is, just not having anyone to at least just say hi to, when you get there. When you just start to know some people and have some familiar faces, it makes going to conferences fun. I used to dread it. Then when I started making relationships and having people that I looked forward to seeing, it made all the difference in that. I love that point about forming those relationships in advance.
[00:15:57] Lindsay: Absolutely. Emily, if we do have the good fortune of meeting, it would probably be the National LMA Conference.
[00:16:09] Michelle: Yes.
[00:16:10] Lindsay: Emily's network becomes my network and vice versa. I think that's just another reason to foster those relationships in advance of the conference. It's just so valuable.
[00:16:26] Michelle: Give me some tips. If somebody wants a relationship like this, how do they go about establishing one? What would be some ways to do it? Are there some things that people need to consider whenever they're looking to form, maybe it's a one-on-one or even if it's a group, they're trying to create this for themselves?
[00:16:51] Lindsay: I think Emily made a really important point earlier on. She talked about asking someone a favor, which I think is really interesting because it feels counterintuitive, especially in working with attorneys, we are so, so conscious of other people's time. But the research actually does show that you feel more connected to somebody after doing them a favor, even more so than if they had done you a favor, which seems wild, but there's been tons of research that supports that.
[00:17:26] Michelle: The active reciprocity. Yes, absolutely.
[00:17:29] Lindsay: Yes. We keep coming back to this point about having the confidence to put yourself out there. The worst that can happen is that somebody just says, "No, I don't necessarily have the time to foster that relationship." That's fine. If our story is any sort of testament to how not scary it is to put yourself out, we can't even remember who made the first move, so to speak. Go ahead and have that confidence to reach out. You can even be so bold as to ask somebody a small favor. That very likely will be the thing that deepens that connection. You can just start doing little things where you're showing up consistently in that relationship. It just builds trust and rapport over time.
[00:18:21] Michelle: Yes, it's great.
[00:18:24] Emily: I would say, too, look for someone that you want to learn from, that will encourage you to grow, that will share a story. That has been such a mutually beneficial aspect of our relationship. I would say, change how you think about mentorship. Mentorship is so important. It's also a frequent buzzword. I think traditionally, you would think of a mentor being someone that has decades more experience in an industry than you do, but that's not always the case. Mentorship could come from someone with a different geographic location or a different career path or just simply a different perspective. That career growth and advising that I think, traditionally, someone looks to a mentor for, I've gotten a lot of that from our relationship and we're coming from a similar place in our career.
[00:19:14] Michelle: Yes, that's a great point. To use the legal word, it's a lateral relationship. You guys are at the same place. It doesn't have to be somebody 10 years further along in their career. Honestly, yes, same thing — I get more out of people who are right at the same spot than me because they're dealing with a lot of the same issues. They might just have gotten to that particular challenge already. They've met a different consultant that could help me, or whatever it is, they just have a different perspective. It doesn't have to be that person that's 10-15 years ahead of you. I love that.
Any other things that people should consider or be careful with, or anything like that, when looking to set up this kind of relationship, would you recommend more than two people? Have y'all ever thought about broadening this relationship?
[00:20:16] Emily: You know, I'll put that out there to your listeners. If there's somebody out there that just wants to join our quarterly meetings, come on in.
[00:20:24] Michelle: Yes. Yes. I love that. Awesome. What do you think it takes to maintain this ongoing healthy relationship? Is there something that you guys do to ensure this is a continuous, healthy, ongoing relationship?
[00:20:45] Lindsay: Well, I think, it's the consistency part, practically speaking. I may have mentioned this earlier, but we're always making sure that we're setting the meeting, the next quarterly meeting, while we're still wrapping up the present call. That helps just protect that time. Emily hit on that earlier. I think you really have to be thoughtful and diligent about protecting that time because it's not necessarily urgent and so it could be easy to let that slip, but I can count on two fingers the times that we have had to reschedule. Of course, we're not judging the other person for that. We both understand why that happens.
But I think being mindful that one of the reasons why this works is because we are prioritizing it. It could get difficult if you had too many of these. I don't have really another relationship that's quite like this so it's easy for me to prioritize that among the other important things in my life, in my work. I think it could be challenging if you had a lot of these types of relationships that you were trying to thoughtfully nurture.
I also think that this started as a work relationship, but it gets personal, too. I recall coming back from maternity leave, which — mine went over the holiday season — and I got back to my office on the first day back to work, the first working day of the new year, and I had a really sweet holiday card that was delivered to my office. It was Emily's personal holiday greeting, she and her family. I just hung that so proudly in my office. Likewise, she welcomed a baby and I popped a couple of my daughter's favorite books in the mail to help her family welcome that precious little girl. I think that it's okay to do personal things and that just helps strengthen that connection.
[00:23:05] Michelle: I love that. That's really cool. Yes, I love that. You guys have already given lots of takeaways. I hope we haven't gone through them all. I'd like to end this with some of those big takeaways that you might give to your listeners, if we have listeners that are going, "Wow, I need this in my career. I need this in my life. I want this," what are some of the takeaways that you would give to those listeners?
[00:23:36] Lindsay: Yes, well, from my perspective, we've touched a lot on these ideas of transparency and vulnerability. I think that is so crucial. We talked about the fact that Emily is out of market for me and vice versa. That is really one of the key things that sets this relationship apart from others. Then just taking those consistent small steps. Practically speaking, that first small step is just reaching out and making that initial contact. Then the second small step is giving it some sort of regular cadence, like even if it's just a quick chat. Then from there, you just continue with that small but thoughtful next action.
One of the best things that Emily has ever done for me is cheered me on with sort of a pet project that I'd been thinking of. She challenged me to make tangible progress on it by our next meeting. Then a couple of weeks later, she even followed up in an email. That sort of accountability was that just small way of her showing up. Just consistently showing up in those small ways, it just builds trust over time. Until what started, as this very simple connection turns into something very deeply supportive and mutually rewarding.
[00:25:10] Michelle: Love that. How about you, Emily?
[00:25:12] Emily: Yes, I'll just add one final point for anyone in that business development and marketing space and professional services. We're all struggling to find that balance between being a business development facilitator and helping those around us with our business development, while also modeling good business development behavior. For me, this relationship just goes to show it can be done. A great relationship like ours can be formed by putting yourself out there, by having that mutual give-and-take and that back-and-forth, and it can all be done virtually. We are living proof.
[00:25:47] Michelle: I love that. I love that. I think a lot of people don't realize what business development is, and you guys are really great examples of that. It is relationship building. I'm always doing that. I'm always pointing it out when my team members do things that I consider — that's business development. You're forming a relationship, that's business development. Well done. Really, really pleased that we can showcase this. I really appreciate you guys coming on and modeling this for everyone. Thank you very much. We've been talking to Lindsay Tiffany of Wyrick Robbins and Emily McKeown of Godfrey & Kahn. Thank you both for your time.
[00:26:29] Lindsay: Thank you, Michelle.
[00:26:30] Emily: Thank you so much.
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[00:26:31] Announcer: Thanks for listening to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.
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