Law firms are often seen as slow to change, but diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) can be powerful drivers of innovation. In this episode, Michelle Calcote King speaks with Terra Davis, Chief Diversity and Talent Development Officer at Knobbe Martens, about the business benefits of embracing DEI in law firms. She discusses how effective DEI work goes beyond the surface to create more welcoming and innovative workplaces where legal professionals want to build long-term careers.
Terra emphasizes that when DEI becomes embedded in firm culture rather than existing as a separate initiative, innovation naturally follows. She shares concrete examples, including how law firms, traditionally homogenous, can benefit from mentorship programs, flexible policies and professional development initiatives. She highlights the importance of fostering a culture that values diverse perspectives as well as how it leads to stronger attorney retention, better client relationships and, ultimately, greater innovation across the legal industry.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn
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The tangible ways diversity, equity and inclusion contribute to innovation in law firms.
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How mentorship programs connect people from different backgrounds and drive professional growth.
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The role of flexible work policies in supporting retention and work-life balance.
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How shifting DEI terminology can help navigate resistance and improve firm culture.
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The impact of qualitative data, like that collected during exit and stay interviews, on shaping DEI initiatives.
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How law firms can modernize policies, such as dress codes, to better align with client expectations.
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Steps anyone in a law firm can take to contribute to a more inclusive and innovative workplace.
About our featured guest
Terra Davis is the Chief Diversity and Talent Development Officer at Knobbe Martens, where she is responsible for leading and integrating the firm’s diversity, equity and inclusion, and professional development efforts, focusing on the recruitment, retention and progression of its attorneys. Outside of Knobbe, she served as the 2020-2022 co-chair of the Legal Marketing Association’s Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Shared Interest Group. In 2024, she was elevated to the Legal Marketing Association International Board of Directors. She is also a member of the Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals, the only organization in the legal industry dedicated to diversity practitioners. In 2024, Terra was selected to serve the California State Bar’s 10-member Council on Access and Fairness. She is a proud graduate of Howard University and received her DEI certification from Cornell University. Terra is passionate about DEI, serving marginalized communities and pushing the needle forward for change.
Resources mentioned in this episode
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
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Transcript
Disclaimer: What you’re reading is an AI-transcribed version of our podcast. It may contain mistakes, including spelling and grammar errors.
[00:00:00] Terra Davis: When it becomes a part of the heartbeat of the culture, and everyone has some sort of part in it, it becomes much more difficult to set it apart. I believe that it is demonstrating innovation in the ways in which we are focusing on research and data around specific demographics.
[00:00:28] Announcer: Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show.
[00:00:45] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and thought leadership marketing agency for B2B professional services firms, including law firms. To learn more, go to www.rep-ink.com.
In this episode, we're going to be talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, which has been a very hot topic in the news lately with the Trump administration targeting federal programs in its very first days. Our conversation today is going to focus on the positive outcomes created when law firms shifted their mindsets and embrace DEI as a core driver of innovation.
Joining us today is Terra Davis. She is the chief diversity and talent development officer at Knobbe Martens. Thank you for joining me.
[00:02:18] Terra Davis: Thank you for having me, Michelle.
[00:01:43] Michelle Calcote King: I'm excited to talk about this. I have a list of bullets to intro you. You lead the firm's integrated DEI and professional development initiatives. You have over a decade of experience in AmLaw. You're a Howard University graduate. You've got a Cornell DEI certification, and you're a member of the Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals. Obviously an expert on this topic, but tell me a little bit about your career and kind of what led you down this path.
[00:02:18] Terra Davis: Sure. I actually started my career outside of the legal industry. I started my career at a university that had an Institute for Women's Health and Leadership. Within that institute, there was a nonprofit arm called Vision 2020, and the goal was — the mission statement, which was in the name Vision 2020 — by the year 2020 to have gender equity. So we have more women running for office, more women in senior leadership positions and more women just generally receiving pay equity across the board and getting the resources that they needed.
I was a part of that mission. I remember when I got out of that work — and no one was calling it diversity, equity and inclusion work at the time. We were just focusing in on a specific gender and the university gave the funds for us to do that.
When I got out of that and entered into the legal industry, I noticed that the legal industry itself was not as diverse as the team that I had been working with. I was working with a group of women, and the women came from all different backgrounds, races, ethnicities, experiences and educational backgrounds. You name it, they had it. So I could look to the left or right of me, and I didn't necessarily see someone who looked or shared a similar lived experience that I did, but we all came together and collaborated and it was deeply innovative.
What I noticed at law firms is that the culture was very homogenic. It was also based largely on less focused on first-generation lawyers and more so focused on a legacy. So your grandparents were lawyers, your parents were lawyers, and then you went to law school, or usually you fit a certain mold. Like, you looked a certain way. You had a certain lived experience with a certain socioeconomic background that afforded you an opportunity to be at a law firm and really understand these — what folks will call unwritten goals — to survive.
I realized, wow, this is a lot different than what I'm used to. And why is that? So I started exploring the why — why does this look the way that it looks? And that's what really got me wanting to be more involved on the diversity, equity, inclusion piece of helping folks making this profession more accessible and then allowing folks who didn't necessarily have those backgrounds an opportunity to be able to come into the profession and be able to be successful.
I'll never forget some of the early stories that I heard when I first entered into the profession. One of them was, "This is the first time that I'm in this socioeconomic space where I'm attending this five-star Michelin restaurant, and I am being asked to eat in front of these folks that I may not have broken bread with before I went to law school, and I'm asked to engage in conversations around things that I wouldn't engage in with my friends or my family members and it's really uncomfortable for me. And now I have to learn how to live in the space."
I never want to tell anyone to not sit in discomfort because I think that's where some really good things can come. At the same time, I do want to be able to encourage folks to be their authentic selves in those spaces to say, "I've never done anything like this before. And what exactly is that? How does that work? Oh, yeah, my childhood experiences, we're doing this, that and the third, I didn't go to a private school" — those types of things.
Being more comfortable being in those environments, because those were the conversations and environments that I was in when I worked at that university. And that you don't necessarily need to fit into a mold in order to survive.
[00:06:39] Michelle Calcote King: That's fascinating. That's a fascinating experience to go through. Let's talk about what's happening right now with the new administration and the massive shift that is happening and the rulings that are happening and how law firms are responding. Can you talk me through what you see as the state of the industry right now? Give me a sense of what you're hearing in the industry.
[00:07:20] Terra Davis: I remain hopeful and encouraged because so much of the work that was happening before this current administration came into place is still happening, but in a creative way. This work has never been focused on those without merit. So, it's never been focused on putting people into places and positions where they aren't necessarily qualified for those positions. It has never been focused on unfairness and focusing on, you know, you get this larger slice of the pie because of the way that you look or your lived experience. It has not been focused on that.
Instead, it's been more so focused on how do I make it so that this is an environment that you want to stay. So it's been more so focused on retention efforts. And so where I find hope and encouragement is seeing that there are still conversations happening around, "Okay, I have a group of parents here — young parents at my law firm — and we're trying to show them more support. So, how are we looking at our parental leave a little bit differently? How are we creating spaces for them to engage with one another?" Because when you become a parent for the first time, no one gives you a manual on how to do it and also how to hold a successful career and bill 2,000 hours while doing that.
Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
Terra Davis: So how can I create a space where there are folks in the room who have adult kids, been there, done that, were able to make successful careers, and pair them up with someone who's just entering this new phase in their lives for the first time? That is the work that we, as practitioners, are doing, and it's incredibly, I think, meaningful and rewarding because it truly is the people side of it.
So we're not just looking at how much time we bill or how many clients you bring in the door, but we're looking at how does your life play a role in how you show up into the workplace, essentially.
And making it — I love the word inclusion, but I think that if I break down diversity, equity and inclusion, it's receiving some backlash because of the way that it's been communicated.
So rather than saying making this an inclusive place, I would say making this a place that is accommodating and inviting and welcoming. Which I think that there's not a single person on this earth who wouldn't want that, who would have something negative to say about, "Man, I really don't want to be seen as a welcoming person when someone walks in the door for the first time," right?
So, what we're saying is we'll do the heavy lift of making this culturally a more welcoming environment for everyone across the board, regardless of who you are. And we're also thinking as much about the white male as we are thinking about the handicapped person who is referring to themselves as they. I think that taking out inclusivity, because that word is a heavy loaded word that requires a bit of defining, and saying, how are we a much more welcoming environment?
[00:11:14] Michelle Calcote King: Do you think — because as a marketer and a PR person, I've been looking at the fact that a lot of firms are scrubbing DEI from their website. They're scrubbing this language. How do you think the perception of DEI is going to impact the efforts ongoing? Do you think that that is going to create challenges for professionals like you ongoing? I guess there was a challenge already. It already existed. But is that going to further complicate efforts?
[00:11:58] Terra Davis: I might be a lone soldier on an island saying that it's not going to complicate efforts by scrubbing the term or phrase from websites, or not necessarily using the phrase when I'm talking about some of the things that fall under that umbrella.
I say that because when you first asked me the question of tell me a little bit about yourself and what you were doing, not once did I mention I worked for an institute for women's leadership where we were focused on the — the language that we were using there was we were focused on gender equity and parity, and we were focused on making sure that women were able to do X, Y, and Z in the workplace and their communities in government and all aspects of their lives. And then this is how we were looking at it and the lens and scope. That place has not once had to scrub its website to remove any of its initiatives or anything like that, primarily because the work is boundless.
And it's not necessarily tied to the term or the phrase. It's been going on for quite some time. It's now that we have given it this packaged phrase that it's now like, "Hmm, what is that? I need to look into that further. I don't understand. This seems meritless. This seems like it's favoritism." It's all of these things. And it's not necessarily that.
When you look back at some of what maybe your HR departments have been doing, or folks in marketing and business development may have been doing, or look across the board what the functions of the business of the law firm has been doing, some of these principles have already been wrapped up in that.
Think about the welcome lunches that you give your associates at law firms every year and think about the ways that you think about how you do those welcome lunches and how you're inviting folks in the room and how you're going to roll out the red carpet so they want to stay. Technically, that also falls under diversity, equity, inclusion. So folks have been thinking about this and been talking about it, but maybe not necessarily in the way you think.
[00:14:32] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, got it. Thank you. I like that perspective.
Let's talk about how DEI — however you want to define it — is a driver of innovation because, you know, you talked to my producer before our interview, and we talked about when we talk about innovation and law firms, a lot of people think about things like technology. It's the big conversation right now, but a lot of people don't think about — but I know just from having interviewed other experts like you that DEI can be a critical driver of innovation. Tell me how so and why firms overlook it and why they shouldn't overlook it.
[00:15:20] Terra Davis: I think the easiest way to start this is that it is oftentimes overlooked because it is embedded in everything that you do, and when it's embedded in everything that we do, it's much more difficult to put it all into a neat, nice box and say, "That's DEI."
It's very similar, I think, to when it becomes a part of the heartbeat of the culture, and everyone has some sort of part in it, it becomes much more difficult to set it apart. I believe that it is demonstrating innovation in the ways in which we are focusing on research and data around specific demographics.
So, just to give you an example, I don't know how many of us would be reading the ABA's reports on women in the profession, and what is causing more women to leave the profession. That's not necessarily something that they're saying "our report women in the profession." They're just saying, "This is — we're focused on research and women in the profession and now we're going to focus on the tactical ways to increase the representation of women in the profession and how to retain those women," but we had to do the research first.
So, a lot of the innovation is coming through research and folks spending the time with the data in a more thoughtful manner. And some of the data isn't always based on numbers solely. But some of it is also based on that qualitative data. So tell me a little bit more about your experience here.
So that happens during exit interviews. That happens during stay interviews. That happens during informal discussions at the making coffee or getting lunch. That's where someone comes in and says, "Hey, did you know so-and-so was going through such and such, or this is what's going on in their practice group?"
You take that data, you take that information, and then you figure out an innovative way to improve the experience and the culture of the firm itself. And so there's quite a bit of innovation, I think, that's coming through this space, even though it doesn't necessarily sit within a diversity department or, like, my role of a chief diversity and talent development officer. It doesn't necessarily sit within my role itself where I'm the sole person that's doing this day in and day out. It's actually a little bit of everyone who has their hands in it and who's thinking creatively about how to maneuver on this.
I know traditionally what we've heard is that it drives innovation because you have more folks who are coming from different backgrounds and lived experiences who are then able to speak up during a meeting and a light bulb goes off for the rest of the folks who weren't thinking the way that that person thinks. Right? Like, that's the way we traditionally have heard about that. But I think it's also something that's part of it, but I think it's also just the research and the information that's being shared and what we now know that is also sparking innovation.
[00:18:53] Michelle Calcote King: What's been interesting for me from this conversation is I think your examples of what so many people think of as DEI and what you're saying. No, no, no. This is DEI, this is DEI.
I'd love — so it's moms. It's — I've heard things from, like, it's veterans. Give me, if you don't mind, a few more examples. Like, if you don't mind, I'd love our audience to have a better picture of what some of these initiatives look like. Can you give me a few more examples of what firms are trying to do? And it doesn't have to even be what you particularly are doing. But give me more of a flavor about what this is, because I think there's just a lack of understanding, unless you're in the field and actually doing it, of what this looks like. Do you have a few more examples that would kind of bring this alive?
[00:20:01] Terra Davis: I'll give you two examples that are quite subtle that we don't often think about in this way.
One is the mentorship programs that many law firms have. A mentorship program at its core is connecting two people who would not otherwise cross paths in that way. And when I'm thinking about the work that I'm doing, like I said earlier, it's people driven. So it's oftentimes relationship driven and building connections and building connections where they wouldn't necessarily be naturally.
Our tendency is going towards someone who has a shared experience to us, or someone who might look like us. And what the mentorship programs that many law firms do is connect someone who holds a bit more senior, who might hold power and influence, with someone who's just starting out and is a bit green and doesn't necessarily know all the things, right?
There's some thoughtfulness and intentionality around that. And also it's bridging a gap and neither of those people who enter that relationship walk out of that relationship the same way.
Now all of a sudden, I'm thinking about things differently in the world differently than I did once before. And the impact that those mentorship programs have on those law firms is incredible. And so law firms aren't saying, I'm going to give up my mentorship program today, because it might be tied to — they're not going to — they're never going to say that.
But in some way, if you think about the core foundation of work and what it is, if you just focus on the people and connections and bridging gaps and making things more accessible for everyone, and causing folks to realize, like, I do have something in common with this person that I didn't think I had — mentorship programs are essentially built on that.
[00:22:10] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:22:11] Terra Davis: The other way would be through — this was an example that I'm taking because I absolutely love it. It changed my world. It changed my perspective — was on just the way that we show up in law firms.
Culturally, law firms have always been the suit and tie place, right? And so you would never come into a law firm space dressed outside the scope of what a lawyer should, quote-unquote, look like. And what I have seen over my time in the legal industry is that being challenged and changed partially generationally. And part of that is really interesting because it's driving business development in a way that hasn't necessarily happened before.
I heard this story anecdotally through a conference that I was attending where someone said, "I work for a firm that everyone wears suits and ties every day, and it's like, you need to look a certain way. And I started to expand my practice and they wanted to get in front of athletes. And the way to get in front of athletes is to look like the athlete, because then I build their trust, because then they don't necessarily see me as the person in a suit and tie and can't go out with them to the dinner that they want to go to, or the concert that they want to go to, and then we so happen to talk about business.
But instead, if I can meet them where they're at, and maybe I'm wearing the Jordans that they're wearing, and I'm wearing the jeans that they really like, and I'm wearing that new label that really resonates with them, because fashion is a really big part of athletic culture right now, then they're looking at me more as a peer and their friend, and then they're willing to work with me as an attorney as well."
And so when I think about that example, that's diversity, equity and inclusion work — that's meeting someone where they are.
And then at the same time being able to say, like, I'm being authentically myself. And I'm learning more about your world too. And so I say that to say that, like, part of that includes now, I think I need to change my dress code policy.
[00:24:35] Michelle Calcote King: Right?
[00:24:35] Terra Davis: Because my dress code policy may not necessarily be meeting my clients where they are.
I've heard business developers talk about this constantly when they are coaching attorneys to go and meet with clients — that you need to really understand your client all the way through.
[00:24:51] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:24:51] Terra Davis: And part of understanding your client all the way through is understanding, how do they show up in their workplace? And, yes, the clients want their lawyers to look like lawyers, but partially they want their lawyers to look like lawyers in the courtroom, right? Like, when they're representing them before people that where it's really important, in front of the board, although it's really important that you look the part. But when you are getting to know them one-on-one and building that relationship, they want to feel like they can trust you. And part of that is, for a lack of better words, not looking so stuffy. So that's a part of this work as well.
[00:25:35] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. And do you think — because I don't want to overlook the fact that there's still an issue of individuals from underrepresented communities actually entering the profession.
So, are there still — do you see firms still affecting change and encouraging people from those communities to come into the profession and helping them and finding ways to support individuals in that way? Are firms involved in those initiatives still, or are most of the efforts aimed at supporting those who end up making it into the firms once they get and navigate the challenges through law school and they get there?
[00:26:28] Terra Davis: It's a little bit of both, but I think that the way that it was set up was always to support a little bit of both. So support the people who are here and also support the people who are making their way through to get here.
[00:26:45] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Terra Davis: And are overcoming challenges and barriers. That when they finally get here, they're taking a deep breath and saying, "I'm so thankful that I'm here," and you're telling them, "I'm so thankful you're here too."
[00:27:00] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:27:01] Terra Davis: "What can I do to help you?" And at the same time, nurturing and supporting those who are currently at your law firms. Even if they don't necessarily match the profile of what I think has been described as the beneficiaries of the work that we do.
[00:27:23] Michelle Calcote King: Got it. Tell me about professional development. What's the role of professional development and like building a more inclusive and innovative firm?
[00:27:38] Terra Davis: Once that person gets here at a law firm, the professional development team is invaluable in shaping that person to become a better lawyer and also get access to resources that they may not have otherwise been able to access on their own.
And so it's really all about that mentorship, that training, the opportunities to engage more with business development, to think more about the different practice groups and career paths that they can have at firms. And maybe that doesn't necessarily look like a straight path to partnership. Maybe that looks like something a bit different — thinking more holistically about their hours and their approach to their hours. Like, now you are a new parent, does this need to change or shift? It's okay that it does. How do we do that differently?
I also sometimes think of us as — some of us are certified coaches — but sometimes I think of us as unlicensed therapists in a way. Because we're also here to cheer for you without necessarily telling you exactly how to get from A to Z, but giving you all the tools to do it and then giving you the emotional support that you need along the way as well.
Because we spend so much time at work and something that I never take for granted is how much time, money, support, resources need to go into you from the time that you enter preschool all the way through the time that you graduate from law school just to get to the firm that I'm at. Right? There was so much that had to happen and so much that had to happen right and well. And when you become a lawyer, it is socioeconomically life changing.
[00:29:44] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:29:44] Terra Davis: And so I want to foster that. I want to support that. It's a shame when you come with all of that, your community's potency saying, like, "You will be a lawyer and you will do well, and you will go far," and you feel a certain pressure to meet that. And you get into the law firm space and within two years, you're struggling. You can't make it.
Michelle Calcote King: That's a problem. And so the professional development space is a really special one, where we see it and we say, how can I help you be successful regardless of who you are and your background?
[00:30:23] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. One final thought — do you have one final thought you'd love to leave our listeners with?
[00:30:32] Terra Davis: Stay encouraged. This work is far from over. This work leads into every single thing that we do. If you believe that the role that you play at a law firm doesn't necessarily afford you an opportunity to pour into this work, it does. You can think more thoughtfully and creatively about how it does, but just the fact that you interact with a person every day means that it does. And the naming and the titles and the language aren't what's important about this work.
[00:31:10] Michelle Calcote King: I love it. Well, we've been talking to Terra Davis of Knobbe Martens, so thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it.
[00:31:19] Terra Davis: Yes. Thank you, Michelle.
[00:31:23] Announcer: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.
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